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4sightsounds
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(Date Posted:08/20/2004 09:24:14)
*sigh*
OK, Hebrews 10:25-29 can only be clearly understood when you back up at least to Chapter 7 and read straight through. From Chapters 7 through 8, the writer references the Jew's former way of life before Christ. Check out Chapter 9:13-14:
"For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
The Jews had reverted back to a life of works instead of accepting the blood of Jesus as payment of sin. At 10:11-12, the writer states that man's attempt to follow the law could never save him: but the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is for sins past, present and future.
"And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"
In verse 10:18, the writer makes it clear to the Jews that their offerings are no good:
"Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin."
Are you starting to see the purpose in which this is written? read up to verse 25 and you will see that we have an assurance, not because of our works, but because of Christ. Instead of trying to "get into the Kingdom", spend your time stimulating each other to GOOD works. That's where our concentration is to be. If we'd engage in that, we wouldn't have time to consider sinning! The Jews had reverted back to their Old Testement law, performing their old rituals. How hard it must've been for them to grasp the concept of grace. Now we can look at 25-29 in its proper context:
Verse 26 basically states that if we continue to sin, there's no amount of offering that you can make to satisfy God. You might as well give up, so what's the point of you Jews engaging in these rituals? You now know the truth of who Christ is (read the entire book of Hebrews if you must to get the context. It's nothing but an overview of what Christ did and for the purpose of being the perfect sacrifice). Your money is no good here, someone once said. You can't write a check big enough to cover yourself....
Verse 27 depicts the inevitable result of relying on law as your ticket of entry. Verse 28 accentuates it. The law of Moses carried of stiff death penalty for sin by the witness of 2 or more.
Verse 29 basically is saying this: "OK, you Jews....I send my only begotten son to die for your miserable, sinful selves and you want to continue to offer me these crappy offerings instead? What, are you nuts?"
So, the point being that Hebrews 10 in its context is meant to show the offense and utter hypocrisy committed by the Jews when they continue to engage in dead works instead of placing their faith in the Living God and the sacrifice of his son, whom is very mcuh alive.
Holyhouse, I admire your zeal. Your warnings are misplaced and your understanding of the God you claim to serve does not match scripture. Please consider this.
God bless, B
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Music production at www.4sightsounds.com
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Tim Flemm
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(Date Posted:08/21/2004 05:29:08)
4Sight... You're on the borderline of the gospel of Inclusion (believing that you don't have to repent to make it to Heaven because the blood of Jesus automatically makes all men clean. So, no one is going to Hell because every man benifits from imputed righteousness- the devil is a lie). You seem to purposely overlook the purpose of the blood of Jesus, his holy spirit, and the redemptive work of God. Romans 6- "Should we continue in sin that grace may abound. No. GOD DOESN"T APPROVE OF THAT (God forbid)." The blood of Jesus isn't there to give you a "get into Heaven free pass". The blood of Jesus is there to wash away sins for the main purpose of ALLOWING you to stand before the Father in his presence. It cleanses you (like the priest) so you can stand before the Father. It doesn't give you the right to live an unholy life and still expect to go to Heaven. It's possible to backslide and not repent.
Revelations 3- "God admitted that he would blot out the names of those written in the lamb's book of life if they continued in sin."
The obvious is there. Just stop leaning to your own understanding and accept the truth. Repent or burn.
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4sightsounds
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(Date Posted:08/21/2004 08:34:25)
Reply to : Tim Flemm
4Sight... You're on the borderline of the gospel of Inclusion (believing that you don't have to repent to make it to Heaven because the blood of Jesus automatically makes all men clean. So, no one is going to Hell because every man benifits from imputed righteousness- the devil is a lie). You seem to purposely overlook the purpose of the blood of Jesus, his holy spirit, and the redemptive work of God. Romans 6- "Should we continue in sin that grace may abound. No. GOD DOESN"T APPROVE OF THAT (God forbid)." The blood of Jesus isn't there to give you a "get into Heaven free pass". The blood of Jesus is there to wash away sins for the main purpose of ALLOWING you to stand before the Father in his presence. It cleanses you (like the priest) so you can stand before the Father. It doesn't give you the right to live an unholy life and still expect to go to Heaven. It's possible to backslide and not repent.
Revelations 3- "God admitted that he would blot out the names of those written in the lamb's book of life if they continued in sin."
The obvious is there. Just stop leaning to your own understanding and accept the truth. Repent or burn.
The Gospel of inclusion? How did you come to that conclusion? Because I say that salvation is of the Lord and not man? ..and where did I say that man does not have to repent?
Let me address the issue of repentence....unless God has called that man to repentence, he will remain hardened to the truth of God's Word. He cannot repent unless he is acted upon by God. Read the entire chapter of Romans 3, and you will see that NO man comes to God....we may THINK we do, but we don't. Not until God arrests us (study Paul's conversion in Acts. It's an awesome picture of the search and arrest mission that all Christians have been through). So, even our repentence is not our work, but the work of the Holy Spirit upon us and in us.
If your righteousness is not imputed, Tim, then it's no good. How you drew the conclusion that righteousness is imputed to all from anything I've said is beyond me. ...and where and how do you conclude that I overlook Christ's redemptive work? Have you read my posts thus far? Just asking, because if anyone is a proponent of Christ's redemptive work in this thread, it's me. It troubles me that you guys continuously assume that I have a candid approach towards sin (but this is common amongst those that believe in a loss of salvation). God hates sin.... But I urge you guys to re-examine why you don't sin. It tells alot about your relationship with God. Either you sin less because of your love for Him and the spirit residing inside of you, that makes him your Father, or your avoiding sin to avoid eternal punsihment, which is not a motivation of the heart, but a motivation of self, and a strong indicator of a relationship that does not exist....please consider this. I keep hearing basically that eternal salvation, in a nutshell is a free license to sin...well, I beg to differ because it grieves me to sin simply because I am his and cannot escape that. What is your motivation for not sinning?
Tim, I hope that quote belongs to someone else and not yourself, because it's not what the verse says. Here's the verse:
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels
If we're going to assume the notion that his mentioning that he will not blot names out presupposes that he will blot others out, then one should immediately consider that interpretation in light of the entire counsel of God. Ephesians 2:8-9 and John 5:24 immediately come to mind....they contradict that interpretation of Rev 3:5 clearly.
So, what is meant by the phrase? Well, there's a figure of speech being used here that's referred to as "litotes", which is a way of making a positive statement by negating the opposite. For example: "For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love..." (Heb. 6:10). Now, we know that God never unjust or forgetful. Nor does he ever blot a saved person's name out of his book. There is no scripture that supports the interpretation of one's name being blotted out.
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Music production at www.4sightsounds.com
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godsoulja7
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(Date Posted:08/21/2004 09:36:59)
ITE I JUST GOT A LITTLE TO SAY. I AM A LITTLE LATE. I DIDN'T READ EVERY WORD BUT I READ A LOT. THIS IS MY 7 CENTS.
YOU CAN ONLY HAVE ONE GOD AND ONE LORD. YOU EITHER SERVE HIM OR U DON'T. GOD SAYS, IF U LOVE ME, OBEY MY COMMANDMENT. KEY WORD, OBEY. WE MAY NEVER BE PERFECT, BECAUSE OF OUR PAST SINS, WE SHALL ALWAYS NEED JESUS. HOWEVER, WE CAN BE SEEN PERFECT. IN THE BIBLE IT SAYS JOB WAS SEEN PERFECT AND UP RIGHT. SO, IT SHOWS THAT WE CAN ALSO. SO, WHY WOULD WE NOT TRY.
YEAH IT IS TRUE, MANY WHO BELIEVE IN ETERNAL SECURITY DO NOT SIN ON PORPOSE. HOWEVER THAT PREACHEN DOES CAUSE OTHERS TO. THAT IS WHY IT IS SO WRONG TO BELIEVE IT, AND THAT IS WHY IT IS A SIN TO BELIEVE IT. IF U DIDN'T KNOW THEN U ARE IGNORANT, MEANING U JUST DON'T KNOW. BUT NOW SINCE U KNOW, THA LORD SHALL HOLD U TO IT.
OK, LET ME JUST SAY THIS LAST THING. JESUS DRANK WINE AND SOME SAY IT IS A SIN TO DRINK. ACTUALLY IT IS A SIN TO GET DRUNK TO OVER CONSUME AND LET THE DRINKING CONSUME YOU. HOWEVER, THE WORD DOES SAY NOT TO DO SOMETHING THAT MAY CAUSE YOUR BROTHER TO FALL. CAUSE BY U DRINKING, UR BROTHER MAY SAY HEY I CAN DRINK, AND HE MIGHT OF BEEN A DRUNK B4 HE GOT SAVED. SO, NOW HE FALLS BACK INTO IT. WELL BY SAYING IT IS OK TO SIN. SOMEONE WHO JUST GOT SAVED, IS LIKE HEY, I CAN SIN. SO, NOW U HAVE A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN WHO BECOMES A BORN AGAIN SINNER. WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE, YET FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT PEOPLE WANT TO EXCEPT JESUS AS THERE SAVIOR (WHO JUST LOVES U), YET U DON'T HEAR HIM AS THE CHRIST (TRYN TO GUIDE YOU) SO YOU FORGET HE IS THE LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS (WHO RULES OVER YOU)
FORGIVE ME FOR NOT HAVEN THE SCRIPTURE SO U COULD CHECK FOR UR SELF. I DO NOT HAVE A STUDY BIBLE WITH ME. I MAY NOT MEMERIZE WHERE ALL THE SCRIPTURES ARE. HOWEVER I DO KNOW THA LORD AND HIS WORD. GO AHEAD AND DOUBLE CHECK ME. MAYBE EVEN LET ME KNOW WHERE THOSE SCRIPTURES ARE. 
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YOU CAN BE ANALITICAL,---------------
OR STRICTLY METAFORICAL,
OR BE BOTH...
AND STILL SPREAD THA GOSPEL,
May the grace of our LORD,
THE CHRIST, AND SAVIOR JESUS,
BE WITH YOU.
Out Peace!
G-O-D Soulja7_____________________________
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4sightsounds
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(Date Posted:08/21/2004 10:32:27)
"IT SEEMS TO ME THAT PEOPLE WANT TO EXCEPT JESUS AS THERE SAVIOR (WHO JUST LOVES U), YET U DON'T HEAR HIM AS THE CHRIST (TRYN TO GUIDE YOU) SO YOU FORGET HE IS THE LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS (WHO RULES OVER YOU)"
Yes, I would agree that many attempt to do this....but in reality, it is impossible. If one does not accept his Lordship, He's probably not their Savior either. Check out The Gospel of John chapters 8 through 10. Specifically 8:44-45 and 10:25-27
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Music production at www.4sightsounds.com
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Tim Flemm
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(Date Posted:08/22/2004 01:34:41)
4sight...
Romans 3... I know what you're trying to imply by that. You're trying to say man won't repent unless God gives him the desire to. I guess you'll probably go on and quote the scripture where Paul says "No man can call Jesus Lord unless the Holy Spirit leads him to do so" or even Romans 9 where Paul talks about "who can be guilty of sin if God is the one who can cause a man to sin or cause a man to walk in righteousness- God being sovereign." Yes. I know what you're trying to imply. But, study the scripture. Study.
There's a difference in God's sovereingty and God's will. Rom 9- God can choose to have mercy on whom ever he chooses. But, 2 Peter 3:9 explains God's intentions- he's patient, not willing that any man perish. Using God's sovereingty as a excuse to justify "eternal security" doesn't work.
2 Timothy 2:21- Paul explains that God gives us a choice as to whether we're going to be "vessels of honor, used to work out the will and plan of God in the earth" or "vessels of dishonor, used to be examples of God's wrath". Choose. Salvation is about making a choice. Hell and Heaven is up to your choosing, not God's sovereingty. Even reaping God's blessings and his Will is up to your choice. God has two wills- his perfect will and his permissive will. You don't have to be a vessel of honor. He won't force you, though he'll try hard to win you over. But, you can insist on CONTINUING in sin (1John 2,3) and he'll let you do it. So, study the scripture before trying to justify wrong teaching by emphasising the "sovereignty" of God.
Every man's conscience is provoked by the Holy Ghost. Some answer, some ignore. And, every man's conscience will testify against him about his choice to do right or wrong in judgment- Romans 2:14-15.
"I will blot out your name..." Using man's understanding to try to avoid what was obviously stated in that scripture. I guess you're going to say Jesus really didn't mean he was going to tell many church folk "Depart from me, I never knew you" either. I guess Jesus was really just saying that to scare people and we don't have to be careful when it comes to our souls. Well, you can believe that. What you just said, how you just tried to explain that scripture isn't even supported anywhere in the scriptures, not even academically. Honestly, that didn't make a bit of sense. That's like trying to say God meant something else when we all know he meant what he said. "If I say "my shoes are black" you can't negate that statement and say "he really meant his shoes are white." You're using bad logic. This isn't Finite Math. We're not doing negations. The scripture is clear and plain as day.
Eph 2:8,9- Understand what "Works" refer to in the scriptures first. Works refer to our religious efforts to impress God (good deeds). In Rev 3- God was speaking of those Christians who (defiled their garments) meaning they who compromised with sin. Any time you hear Jesus refering to "those that watch; or those that watch not" he means "those who keep careful guard over their souls, making sure they live a life pleasing to God AT ALL TIMES keeping in mind that God's is ever-present and watching and soon to return." So, when he said, "If you don't watch, I will come like a theif in the night..." he was saying, "if you play games with sin (assuming you're going to just be forgiven because you made a confession a long time ago) then you're going to get left behind." It can't get any clearer. If you assume that, just because you confessed Christ and the blood of Jesus washed away your sins (of the past that brought the wages of death), that doesn't mean you can use "eternal security" as an excuse to not continue to live righteously before God. Why? God will still leave you in the dirt if you play games with sin by compromising, and living in sin, and (not watching) for Christ's return.
Works don't save you, but OBEDIENCE DOES. If you love God, you'll obey him. Rev 3- the names that get blotted out of the book of life are those individuals who thought they could cover-up their disobedient lifestyles using the grace of God. They were given warning after warning, and still played around. So... they didn't make it.
vs. 5-"Those that overcome, they will be given a white raiment (in Heaven, God will give them a white garment to wear signifying their redemption)... and will confess them before my Father." If you want to talk about negating a statement, why did Jesus say "I won't blot out their names, BUT will confess them before my Father." That statement implies Jesus won't do one thing, but will do another thing INSTEAD. He won't blot out their names, but will instead confess them before God.
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godsoulja7
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(Date Posted:08/22/2004 05:08:10)
Reply to : Tim Flemm
4sight...Romans 3... I know what you're trying to imply by that. You're trying to say man won't repent unless God gives him the desire to. I guess you'll probably go on and quote the scripture where Paul says "No man can call Jesus Lord unless the Holy Spirit leads him to do so" or even Romans 9 where Paul talks about "who can be guilty of sin if God is the one who can cause a man to sin or cause a man to walk in righteousness- God being sovereign." Yes. I know what you're trying to imply. But, study the scripture. Study.There's a difference in God's sovereingty and God's will. Rom 9- God can choose to have mercy on whom ever he chooses. But, 2 Peter 3:9 explains God's intentions- he's patient, not willing that any man perish. Using God's sovereingty as a excuse to justify "eternal security" d
yo 4 sight, i think u misunderstood me. i was tryen to say that many accept him as Jesus yet not as Lord. that is what others do. yet that is as u said immposible.
u must accept all of god, and every person of god. that is THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE SON. THE TRINITY is ONE. so i agree with u that it is impossible to accept Jesus as savior yet not as lord.
yet that is what many do, not knowing what they is doing. they is so focused on Jesus and how he died for us to saved us. so, the forget he died so the holy spirit could rest among us. to help and guide us. guide us for what u ask. to serve the lord righteously.
you see, we love the lord because he first loved us. he died for us so now we must die for him. meaning give him our life, our flesh. with god/jesus/holyspirit in us we are new creatures. and as a new creature oldthings are pass (2cor5:17). we should be diff. so we shouldn't always trip over the same thing.
eternal security is eternal security, if u believe hell is a secure place to be.
secure = safe from danger hot burning for eternity = not so secure
one other thing, at first i did think that holyhouse was comen at people hard with this eternal security being called a heresy and stuff.
however i have read the scriptures and the more i read the more i see it so clearly. it has been there all along. false prophets speeken in the lords name.
Read 2 Cor 6 + 7
Recieve not the grace of God in vain. He didn't die to free us of sin so we could chain ourselfs back to it. that is just to crazy to believe.
u people may not see it, but i see that holyhouse does have zeal, tha same zeal as paul, to speak tha truth. they were even upset at him a bit
tha truth is there, its every where, yet u seem to walk through, as walking through air
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YOU CAN BE ANALITICAL,---------------
OR STRICTLY METAFORICAL,
OR BE BOTH...
AND STILL SPREAD THA GOSPEL,
May the grace of our LORD,
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